Jack Overman

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Jack Overman is a humble eighty-six year old man with wispy white hair, and a beaming smile. His charming personality was evident from the moment that I met him. Though Mr. Overman now lives a quiet life at home with his wife, only a few feet away is the campus he helped to shape. First by attending Kansas State Teacher’s College, then by directing the student center for thirty-four years, Jack Overman has left an indelible mark on the community. In recognition of his dedication and service the student center at Pittsburg State University has been name the Jack Overman Student Center.

*(My name is) Jack Hudson Overman. Hudson was my mother’s maiden name. (My birthday is) August 23, 1918. I was born in Girard. Only lived there six weeks then moved to Pittsburg. Lived here ever since. I’ve lived here all my life. Don’t know any better.

Well, the earliest real vivid memory that I have is we lived at 205 East Washington and I was four years old, I guess, and I got scarlet fever. And back then when you had something like that, why the Crawford County health officer would come out, put a big sign on your door “quarantined” and no one could come in and no one could go out. And I can remember standing at the east window of 205 East Washington waving at my dad ‘cause he couldn’t come in the house, for I think it was, two weeks or something.

My dad worked for the Southwestern Bell Telephone Company for thirty-nine years. Back when he first started to work, why everything was on a telephone line. You didn’t have anything wireless, you didn’t have any radio, you didn’t have anything. Everything was on a telephone line. So he started out as a lineman, puttin’ telephone lines up and then climbin’ poles, see where the trouble was and so on and so forth. When he first started Southwestern Bell Telephone Company, at the time, furnished their linemen, not a truck; but a motorcycle with a sidecar, and he kept his tools in this sidecar. And that’s HOW the telephone industry started. [chuckles] Now here you’ve gotta little wireless deal [points to recorder], and you can be anywhere and talk to anybody; but boy, back then if those wires weren’t up there and in good shape, you didn’t talk to anyone.

Eighty some years ago, when I went to every movie that I could go to if I had a nickel, why that movie house was called the Grand Theater. They’d always have a cartoon and the Universal News. They always had five minutes of news put on by Universal Studios or someplace ’cause - - see back then, you didn’t have radio, you didn’t have television, so you got your news at the theater. So, they’d have a cartoon, and they’d have news, and then they’d usually have a serial; and you’d always go back next week to see how that guy was gonna get out of that fallin’ off that cliff cause sure looked like it was gonna kill him. But it never did, see. And that’s one of the first things I remember. Went to the movies every week, and it only cost a nickel.

Back then we used to have a roller skating rink and it was right across from where the Social Services is now at Kansas and Broadway. It was up on the fourth floor of the old Courtney Building. We’d skate up there at least twice a week. Back then, too, skates had leather-soled shoes you didn’t have shoes like that (points to Kylie’s shoes) or like mine (lifts his foot). You had leather-soled shoes and your skates they clamped onto your leather-soled shoes; and we used to skate a lot.

The first concrete street was between Washington and Adams. And some of us went to the city commission. Well, wasn’t a commission then - - it was a commissioner form of government. They didn’t have a city manager or anything. We went to the street commissioner and got him to let us block that street off, oh, maybe one or two nights a week, and we’d skate on that brand new concrete down there with those ol’ steel roller skates on your feet. Oh, we used to ice skate and build bon fires.

(In school my favorite subject was) Fun. [laughs] I was not the greatest academian. I mean, I’d make an A every now and then. I’d make B’s and C’s. I wasn’t a D and F student. I wasn’t a four-point-zero either. But I was in everything. Back then, they had two religious groups that was called “Hi-Y” and “Girl Reserve.” And then I was in a number of plays, and I was in three operas, and I was cheerleader for three years up there at the high school. So I had fun. I had fun in high school. I was always at the “Y” (YMCA) playing basketball in a church basketball leagues, or I was down at the “Y” working in the hobby shop, or I was out cattin’ around, or I was out to a dance. I did a lot of dating in high school. So I had a lot of dates. More than I shoulda. Shoulda been at the library a few of those times.

I delivered The Kansas City Star morning and night for five years. Get up at four o’clock every morning. Kansas City Star’s are big, you know. I had 150 people on my route. And they’d (the Kansas City Stars would) come in bundles of fifty. They’d be about that (makes a one foot by one foot box) big. So, when I delivered the first fifty, then they would leave another bundle of fifty at the next spot. I’d deliver those fifty and they’d have another bundle of fifty at the next spot. Oh, we’d usually start (delivering at) about five. Folding papers and getting them ready to deliver. My route was on Seventh, west Seventh Street from Broadway to Georgia, Sixth Street, Fifth Street, part of Fourth Street. Back then I think the Star was twenty-five cents a week, and I think we got a nickel out of that. So, if I had 150 papers, well, I got five dollars a week. Of course back then, you could buy a hamburger for a dime. You could buy a coke for a nickel too.

Weekends I started working at a Kroger Grocery, and I worked two years when I was in high school at the Kroger Grocery. That was where Crowell’s Drug Store is now. Back then there weren’t any stores in Pittsburg except right on Broadway; and people back then, they didn’t have any TV. No by ‘36 you had a radio, you know. But outside of the radio and movies, that’s all you had. So people would drive downtown at four o’clock in the afternoon and find a parking place between Third Street and Seventh Street - - because in those four blocks there were big grocery stores, there were three movie houses, there was Grant’s Department Store, there was a big F. W. Woolworth Store, there was a mammoth Kress Store. And everyone came to town on Saturday night to either shop, go to the movies, or watch the people go by. And people would park their car there at four o’clock so they could sit in the car and just watch people go by. And on Saturday night all the stores stayed open until nine o’clock, and it was just shoulder- to- shoulder people from Third Street to Second Street. If you wanted to walk down the street, it took you quite a little bit to walk a block ‘cause there’s just so many people. And the manager at Krogers knew that I was a loud mouth so at eight o’clock Saturday night, hour before all the stores closed, he’d make me get out in front of that store and whatever we weren’t sellin’, he’d have me out there whoopin’ “Bananas! Five pounds for a quarter! Come on in. Get bananas. Five pounds for a quarter! Big Bargain. Come on in and get bananas!” or whatever it was, ya know. I worked there two years, and then I came out to the university, then I worked there another four years. All through high school, (and) through college.

The first day I went (to Krogers grocery store) I went to work at seven o’clock in the morning and I got the produce counter all ready. (Got) stuff outta the refrigerator, put it on the produce counter. Then as people came in, you waited on them back then and so, if you were gettin’ busy, why you’d do that. If you weren’t doin’ that, then you were stockin’ shelves. Then you did all of that all day long till nine o’clock at night. Then at nine o’clock at night when the store closed, you changed all the winda displays with the items that was gonna be on sale the next week - - take the old ones out. Then you changed all the islands in the store of the specials that were gonna be next week and take the old ones, put ‘em back on the other shelves. And then you stocked all the shelves that were empty that people had taken stuff off all day. Then you went back and cleaned the store room up and then you candled eggs. (That is when) you got a square box here. It’s got a hole in it that (makes a circle with finger and thumb) big around. It’s got a big light in it, and you’d take every egg and put it up in front a there to see whether it was good or not. Some of ‘em had a chicken in it. And that’s what’s known as candling the eggs. Then, if you were unlucky enough, you got to clean the fish tank out that had fish in it all week. So, I did that a number of times. Then, course after you had all this restocking and changing the specials for the next week and everything, then you cleaned the store - - swept. You cleaned the restrooms. You did all this and I walked outta there at three o’clock the next morning. So I worked seven till three o’clock. And I got two dollars and eleven cents - - that was 1933. (We had) maybe twelve, fifteen of us in there. It was a big store. You know where the Fort Scott Community college is now? That used to be the old A & P Grocery Store. That whole building was a big grocery store. Oh! Also, every Saturday, Kroger truck would come in with hundred pound sacks of potatoes, hundred pound sacks of sugar, hundred pound sacks of flour. We had to unload that offa the truck and bring it in the store room. And then, when we weren’t busy, why you went back there ‘n sacked the potatoes in ten pound bags or you’d sack the sugar into five pound bags. You’d sack flour into some five pound bags.

And I also worked as a ‘soda jerk.’ At the old Collegiate - - that was a college hangout - - back then, you wanted a Coke, there was a great big fountain. There’s chocolate, there’s strawberry, and there’s vanilla.. So you’d come in and you’d want a cherry Coke, so I’d push two squirts of Coke syrup. I’d punch one squirt of cherry, then I put the ice in it, then you’d have a big fountain that comes up and then you squirt carbonated water in that, and that’s how you made a Coke. Now it’s all done out of a machine, you just pull a lever and get Coke. But back then, and that’s what was known as a ‘soda jerk.’ And we made milkshakes, malts, sundaes, banana splits. Phosphates. We used to have cherry phosphates, lime phosphates, strawberry phosphates. Basically, it was just whatever flavor of syrup you had and then carbonated water. They’d call it phosphates.

(A lot of work.)Boy you said it. I tell ya. My mother ‘bout had a Jiminy fit, ‘cause here I was fifteen years old or somethin’ and still out at three o’clock in the mornin’. But she got used to it cause that was every Saturday night.

Well, course (the Depression) affected me like it affected all the people back then. I mean back then, in the Universal News that we’d see every movie we went to they’d show these b-i-i-i-g-g-g lines of people in New York, Detroit, Chicago waitin’ in the soup line to get a bowla soup. And course, that’s back when the CCC boys started and when the WPA started and you’d see shots of those groups workin’. And NO one, NO one -- I’m talkin’ about even the rich people -- so many of them lost a fortune in the ‘29 crash and ya know, well there were rich people; but even, even they noticed the Depression ‘cause their money was a lot less than what it was before the crash. There wasn’t anyone that had a job, I mean that’s why the WPA and the CCC corps was started -- it was to give people jobs. The stadium over here? The big round wall around the stadium? At the university? WPA job. They built that.

Well course the, the real Depression was from about, oh, ‘32, ‘31, ‘32 somewhere along in there up till about, well, things began to get better in ‘38, ‘39 then ‘40. Then when the war started, well things really, everybody got jobs then, ya know. So there was about seven or eight years there, I started junior high in thirty¼ 1930. Started at high school in 1933, so it woulda been right about that time. But, luckily, luckily my dad had a job. He was climbin’ poles when they were icy, and it wasn’t a very good job but at least he had a job. We didn’t ever have a lotta money. But we, we didn’t have to stand in the soup line like so many of my friends did.

(Jack Overman in his early thirties when he started working at the Student Center)

(I was a yell leader in college for) three years. Then I was president of student government the last year. So, I had to give up the yell-leading, ‘cause both of them took too much time. Back then, as a yell leader, you were a yell leader. Today, you are a athlete and a performer. I couldn’t any more throw you over my shoulder than I could fly. I wasn’t an athlete; but I had a loud voice, and I knew how to get a crowd excited. Back then, we had fifteen or twenty different cheers. You know, regular cheers that everybody knew. Everybody knew ‘em then. Back then, as a head cheerleader, I would watch every play and we were third down and needed a yard - - that’s when you get the crowd excited, you know. Get into it ‘cause this is crucial. But now, they don’t watch the game. They perform, you see. And it’s great. They do a beautiful job. But as far as getting the crowd excited when they need to be, they don’t pay any attention to it. Its, you know, it is just completely different. All we did was get the crowd stirred up and get them to yellin’. Now of course, out here at the university, you know, they get the girl clear up on the three stories high and she puts up “Pitt” and you yell “Pitt”, and one across the way puts up a sign that says “State” and they yell “State.” But they may be doing this during an intermission or something, you know. That isn’t when the boys need to hear the hoopin’ and hollerin’. They need to hear it on a third down and one yard to go. But they never once give any thought to how to stir up a crowd. How to make mob hysteria. And besides that, I don’t like it because every time a girl gets up three stories high, I just scringe, ‘cause all they’ve got to do is make ONE mistake and that girl’s gonna be in a wheelchair the rest of her life - - like one of our girl’s twenty-five years ago is still in a wheelchair at Hays. She lived in Hays ‘cause they dropped her, and she broke her back; and every time they do that it just scares me to death. I guess that’s what you’re supposed to do now.

(The games have changed) very little. Well, I mean you know - - look at the beautiful stadium that we have today we didn’t have that back then; but we had the same spirit, we had the same fun. Well now, the football game it’s self hasn’t changed; but leading up to it has because back in my day before every conference championship game we’d have bonfires over there big as some of those trees out there. (We’d have them) over at the south side of the stadium. And we’d have a big pep rally over there and we use to have the Jama Night - - have snake dances. Big snake dance down to Fourth and Broadway then have a pep rally down at Fourth and Broadway. And we always had a big pep rally at some time before every game of any importance at all. Always had a bonfire - - the physical plant use to help us get wood. We’d have the coaches talk and the boys talk. It was basically students. But see, back then you’ve got to remember - - we had, at that time, about twelve hundred, thirteen hundred students - - there wasn’t one of those students who had a car. So, back then we had a dance in the old gym every Friday night. See, now every kid has a car so they go off to Kansas City, or they go to Springfield, or they go to Joplin, or someplace. Back then, we had to make our fun right here on the campus because we didn’t have any transportation. We couldn’t go anywhere and we didn’t have any money. So we made all of our fun right here.

(We had a) street car (that ran) out here (by the student center) and there was a little gazebo there where you could wait under the gazebo for the street car. Then you’d get on the street car and go back to town or wherever you wanted to go.

Well, as a student - - Emporia had a student center. We didn’t have one. And, naturally, we wanted a student center, a student union. An’ everybody whooped and hollered ‘bout it, we’re gonna get it. The year I ran for president of the student government I ran against a guy (that) got up in assembly and said, “If you elect me president, I’ll guarantee you’ll get you a student union built.”

My turn came and I said, “We’ve all been interested in getting a student union building like Emporia has” ‘cause they were havin’ dances in their student union building, and we were havin’ (ours) in an old gym. And they were havin’ programs in their student union builing, and we didn’t have any place to have, ya know. So I said, “If you elect me, I’ll do everything in my power to get a student union building, but I cannot guarantee that I’ll get it.” I was a worker. Most of the students knew that I worked for what I thought we needed. So that was kinda, ya know, all hoopla. So the morning we voted - - out in the center of the oval, that sidewalk that goes from the student center over to Whitesitt, straight across - - right in the center of that sidewalk was an old outhouse. On all four sides of this old outhouse was - - I can’t think of that guy’s name, Ray Allen or something like that, big sign on all four sides, “Ray Allen student union building” ‘cause he had said the day before that he would guarantee that (he would get it). But I beat him, and tired to get one; but that was in 1939. We didn’t get one ‘til [laughs] 1951 so I was along time gettin’ it.

Oh, the students just kept whoopin’ and hollarin’ until finally the administration said, “Well, you want one that bad. Well, I guess we can put a bond issue up. You can pay so much more on your tuition.” So that’s how we finally worked it. See, there isn’t any state money allowed in a student union building, to build it or to operate it. It’s a business. Even the faculty back then pledged one half of one percent of their salary to build that building; and then the students started out at five dollars a semester. Of course they passed the bond issue to build it; and then there’s been three additions built onto it since then.

We opened the student center on, uhh, ‘bout September the second 1951, but I came on the staff, on the faculty, in May of ‘51. And from May ‘til we opened I was assembling the staff and writing programs for it. Hirin’ people for it. (I worked there from) ‘51 to ‘85.

A student union to a campus is the same thing as a big hotel is to a city. Ya know, you have meetings, and you have social events, and you have this and you have that. And, uhh, course the student union is not just a building. The important part of (the student union is) programming and what goes on in it. (Student) committees would meet once a week and plan what kind of poetry readings we were gonna have and when. We always had about six committees and we’d have a major attractions committee, and we’d have a dance committee, a fine arts committee, and a marketing committee; and oh I don’t know, whatever there was. Always had a movie committee. And these committees would meet once a week and plan what kind of poetry readings we were gonna have and when. What movies we were gonna show. And what people, comedians, ‘n artists and all - - from all over the country you could bring in here. And, course when you’re doing all this you have a certain amount of money. So, you as a committee, has to decide what you can do with the amount of money. One committee member may want to do one thing, and the other may want something else. And so you have to learn to, to get along with people. You have to learn how to manage a budget. You have to learn what is important to student interests. So, we always say, that the student union is learning outside of the classroom. We are part of the educational system, but it’s what you learn outside of the classroom and that is how to get along with people, and how to compromise, and how to get your opinions across, how to get someone else to agree with you, or you with them. Now, we have a paid professional staff program director who works with these committees ‘cause sometimes and during my tenure - - sometimes they’d get out in left field so far that I’d have to kinda go in and see if I could get ‘em back down the middle of the road there.

(The sign naming the student center after Jack Overman. The building is west of Joplin Street and north of the oval.)

If you came in and you scheduled a meeting and you wanted water there and you wanted glasses there, and you wanted (ice) fixed in a square - - I was runnin’ thirty minutes ahead of that meeting to see that our staff had set things up the way you asked them to be set up. I’d run to the next place; and course, you always had problems comin’ up. The sewered stop up, the electricity would go off or somethin’, always fightin’ those battles. Then just managing a business. What it amounts to. Course we had a good staff, you need a lot of people. We had about a, about fifty full time staff and about seventy students workin’ - - between the student center and the food service which included the residents hall students.

Worst time we ever had was when the kids in the program, in the lecture committee, wanted to bring some Nazi here who was hated with a passion in the United States. I just, oh man, I worked like crazy tryin’ to get them to undo that, but their program. So we brought him here, and I can’t remember his name; but he was so controversial and so hated that we had city police, sheriff’s office, Kansas Highway Patrol, FBI, Kansas Bureau of Investigation, probably four or five other agencies that I don’t remember. We had policeman from one end of Carnie Hall to the other. We were sold out, fifteen hundred people. And he was radical! I just knew somethin’ (would) happen, and then I’d take the blame because after all they are all responsible to me. So, he goes through his lecture, oh man, we put him in a state police car and got him outta town. I was never so relieved in all my life. And six weeks later, they shot him over in Missouri. That’s what I was afraid would happen here.

Well, (having the building named after me) is something that I never thought I would see. Ordinarily, you don’t have a building named after you unless you give a million dollars or unless you die after thirty-five years - -unless you worked to death, ya know. Now we had a student union governing board, and this board made all the policies for the student union. Made all the regulations. Interpreted what we wanted to do, and how we wanted to do it. A couple years before I (was) about to retire we had a young lady who was president of the student union board, at that time; and she was a person that wouldn’t take “no” for an answer - - and she was quote “pushy,” and she was bright. Students have a lot more power than they realize, if they know how to use it. Well, she knew how to use it. So she decided that this building oughtta be named for me ‘cause I’d been there for thirty-five years, and I’d worked eighteen hours a day, seven days a week for thirty-five years. To have done that, (she had) to get the board of governors - - who she was president of - - to approve it; and then it has to go before the student affairs vice president and his staff to approve it. Then it goes through the executive council of the university to approve it. Then the president has to approve it. And then the Board of Regents has to approve it. Well, she was just smart enough ta push that through, along with the young man that finished up then the next year - - Scott Ewing. And he was also a little pushy, and was also bright. So between those two, they pushed that through. I didn’t know a thing in the world about it. And then President Wilson, was president at that time, and he said, “Well, yeah!” He said, “Never been done, but looks good.” So I felt sooo humble and so honored that this was done by the students. Those two just kept putting pressure on it. So, those are the two people that did this, Lori Crumsick is the main woman. I was flabbergasted; I just didn’t have - - ya know, I couldn’t believe it. They had a big, big, big ta-do. Big community with the unveiling of a big brass plaque.

Well, course the most rewarding experience I had was when they named the building after me. Ya know, that was a great day - - I made a speech that night and I reviewed all the major things that had happened from 1951 to 1985. And that really was kinda interesting to see all of the things that had happened. ’Nother thing that you might be interested in is that, back in the fifties you see when we opened up in ’51 all the big bands were still traveling. Ya know, Guy Lumbardo, Tommy Dorsey, Mary James, all the big bands you’ve ever heard of. And so many of ’em would be in Kansas City, then they’d have a date in Oklahoma City two days later. So, so we used to pick a lotta those bands up. I think over between, in the fifties and sixties, twenty years there, we usually had at least two or three big bands in our building every year. I don’t think you could name very few big bands that we didn’t have here at some time during that twenty year period. When you, when you’ve got big bands come here, it’s a big deal back in the fifties.

We’ve had all kinds of Senators here from Warshington with our lecture circuit. And we’ve had, well we’ve had all (kinds) of speakers. We’ve had people runnin’ for vice president - - Nadar. We’ve had a lot of people, famous people that got famous after we had them here. They were just on their way up. Roy Clark was one of ’em. We had him here and then he got on what was that cornball show he was on. And then Steve Martin, we had him here when, when he used to run (with an) arrow through (his) head. Yeah, he was on the old Carnie Hall stage. Oh, but the, but the most rewarding thing of the whole thirty-five years was working with people like you. I mean I couldn’t work eighteen hours a day, seven days a week, and that’s about what I did without workin’ with student like you. I always enjoyed¼ I always had fun with ’em.

(My greatest accomplishment was) being able to serve under eight different presidents (of the university) and not gettin’ fired. [laughs] Every time a new president would come in I’d wonder if he was gonna bring a new student union director with him ‘cause some presidents will bring an assistant. You know, the administrative staff over here (PSU), they’re basically years contract. Now the faculty, they have what’s know as tenure and it’s kinda hard to get rid of them; but if you’re just administrative staff... So, luckily I was able ta keep us in the black and I was able to work new fees out. I was able to sell the new bond issue to the students; and I was able to satisfy eight different presidents, and their wives because we served many a dinner over (at) the (President’s) house. Course the president’s wife always had to have everything so-so. So, that’s probably my biggest accomplishment.

One of the great moments was when Debra Barnes, who was one of our music majors, got to be Miss America in 1968. And when she came back here, we put on a big super duper banquet for her. And I asked her what she wanted, and she wanted broth, German - - somethin’ we’d never served. But anyway we must have had three hundred people at that banquet and fancy, fancy. Then we had the ambassador from Italy here once, and big shindig for him kinda different.

We were stupid (one time). Our program director was Judy Talvich, and she came to me and said, “Well, the committee has a chance to get the Beach Boys here. What do ya think?” It cost thirty-five hundred dollars, and that was back in the fifties when thirty-five hundred dollars was quite a little bit.

I said, “Well, okay.” So we got all the publicity out the Beach Boys were commin’. We had to send them half of the money to begin with; so, we sent ‘em eighteen hundred and some dollars. Well ‘bout a week before, they bailed. We found out that this (agency) was a hole in the wall in New York. Had no relation to the Beach Boys what-so-ever. And we found out that they had suckered in - - oh, at least - - two dozen other schools, and they had even suckered in the New York Policeman’s Benefit - - big deal for New York they were gonna have. Well, we found this out, and I (thought) how can you be so stupid. People would come to ya, “Well how could you be so stupid Jack? Why didn’t you tell these kids? Why didn’t you find out? How could you be so dumb?” We (were) written down in the newspaper, the Collegio, rakes us up one side and down the other. Spendin’ students’ money, throwin’ students’ money away, and blah-blah-blah.

So I said to Judy, I said, “Judy, let’s just say, ‘Okay, we are stupid. We’re dumb. We didn’t do our homework well; but we’re gonna sue ‘em’.” So we sued ‘em, and Judy and I both got outta it a great trip to New York to testify at the Federal Judiciary center up there. And we got those three guys put in the penitentiary. But no other school would do it. They swept it under the rug. They wouldn’t admit that they did it, see. But boy. We took a beating over it. See, that all didn’t come out for about six months time it went through the legal process and all. So, we really took the grunt for about six months there. We got all of our money back, and put them in the penitentiary.

The, the big difference (between now and then) is the fact that in my day with only twelve hundred students - - and it was Kansas State Teachers College at that time - - we were one big happy family. Today, we have four schools, we have the school of education, we have the school of arts and sciences, we have the school of technology, we have the school of . . . (counts on fingers) arts and sciences¼ oh business, the school of business. So we have four separate schools now. All business people stay over here, all the arts and science people stay over here, all the technology people stay over here, nobody gets in together. You don’t have any criss-cross of curriculum talk. You don’t have any criss-cross of arguments between one academic deal and another. Back in our day we made all of our fun. Today you don’t have any of that ‘cause you gotta automobile, your friends got one. You go to Joplin, you go here, you go there. You’re mobile. We weren’t mobile see. We had to enjoy each other right here - - on this campus. But you don’t see much of that now-a-days.

(Jack Overman at the time of the interview in his late eighties.)

I wouldn’t change anything. I had a lot of chances to go to bigger universities and manage their student unions. But I always loved PSU; we’ve always loved Pittsburg. We’ve always loved the people here. But finally, after a few years, I thought, “As long as they pay me what other union directors that have six thousand students have, and as long as they’re not on my back rasin’ cain about how I want to do it, as long as I can run on my own show basically...” We just decided to stay here, and make this our career. So, that’s what we did; and luckily, I was able to stay under eight of ‘em.

*( ) indicates words not said by Jack Overman

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Interview conducted on Dec. 30, 2004 by Kylie Quick